Curse

ChaoticCoyote · Aug 30, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

DUPE

Ugh... server lag ftl

ChaoticCoyote · Aug 30, 2007, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Gaile says a lot of things...

Gaile said that Razah would NEVER be changed, because it would devalue the effort of people who had worked heard to get him.

Attaining Razah was drastically changed.

Gaile said the favor would NEVER be changed, because it was part of the core design of GW.

Favor was drastically changed.

I could go on and on, but I think the point is made: Gaile often makes absolute pronouncements that don't hold up in the long run.

Gaile is a hard-working, honest, helpful person. This is in NO WAY a slam against Gaile. It is simply a fact that ANet changes direction based on player feedback -- and this is a GOOD THING.

And so I keep beating on these points:

Full hero parties WILL NOT obsolete henchmen, since most people don't have the time/inclination to fully equip 25 heros.

Full hero parties WILL HELP deal with the spreading of the population, which makes PuGs difficult.

Full hero parties WILL NOT make Hard Mode into Easy Mode, since heros can't use PvE-only skills and can't coordinate finesse-based builds. AI will always be inferior to real humans.

Full hero parties WILL ADD greater tactical and strategic diversity for those of us who like the challenge of building synergistic teams.

Full hero parties WILL NOT force anyone to use heroes! If you think they make the game too easy, don't use them!

Full hero parties WILL ALLOW people like me to pursue HM titles otherwise locked off to us by a lack of players.

And for the insulting twits in this thread: I don't need full hero parties to beat Normal mode. I got seven Protector titles on three characters across three campaigns WITH PUGS.

TabascoSauce · Aug 30, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

From Navaros, in another thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

The thing is, GW games in normal mode are never going to provide any sort of challenge to a good player who knows how to play properly and has proper skillbars equipped, regardless of PVE-only skills existing or not. A good player can easily steamroll any area of normal mode in any GW game with Heroes/Hench. Therefore for a player who knows what he is doing, it can't be "dumbed-down" any more or made easier than it already is.

The only thing PVE-only skills do is add some fun to the game with new ways to play the game, which is gonna be steamrolled either way; with or without PVE-only skills.

The same applies to Henchies or Heroes. A player who manages aggro will be able to win, regardless of the team he or she is on.

I think the one side feels that Heroes further separate users from eachother by providing an easy button, making PuGs redundant, and they are correct, but I think it has more meaning than they originally intent or want to intend. It has been said many times here that PuGs are people who cannot win with Heroes, and thus will not be able to pull their weight in a party.

I have found that statement to be true.

What is to be done about it? I do not know. But I can safely state that I trust a hench or hero monk more than a human - they have situational awareness and reflexes that no human can match. That is why they have crazy interrupt capabilities, as well.

Since I am in the camp where I have limited time and can be called away at any moment, I favor the 8 hero idea. There is no downside as far as I can see for my gamestyle. But I am not the only gamer, and ANet should go for a middle ground.

The only advantage humans have over heroes is the (new) PvE skills, or the endgame skills from Kuunavang/Lightbringer.

I would say that if ANet wanted to encourage teaming, which wouldnt hurt them, they should make it worth our while in rewards like loot drops.

Just my 2 copper.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Abedeus · Aug 30, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qual

Either you are lying or you were very unlucky. Yes some pugs are shit, but most of them are okay imo.

Excuse me? In 15 minutes I got to first Ettin group, while with H/H I was there in 7 minutes. With PuG's I do mission twice as long. And someone has a point - You will be actually able to make some TACTICS! I mean, what tactic can you have if, for example, you have 6 henches and 4 heroes, like my monk has in Prophecies? 2 monks, 2 wars, 2 nukers, a derv and necro battery. And that's whole tactic I can use with that. Now with 7 heroes.. I have no barriers. Even that funky Eskimos team build on wiki. And still I won't be able to solo DoA with heroes, as they are just more stupid than people. So PuGs are safe and solo people (like myself - after today I will never join a pug) are happy.

Novalon · Aug 30, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

This is a good idea. But like what the auction house thread in the suggestion forum, I doubt we'll get what we're trying to accomplish.

Draikin · Aug 30, 2007, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

If most people then do that, then why all the fuss about needing 7 heroes when henchmen do it alright? Also Henchmen again do fine even in HM.

Henchmen aren't always fine in HM, anyone that vanquished or tried to vanquish Poisoned Outcrops with H/H will tell you that. A lot of people have different reasons for wanting 7 heroes, but Hard Mode is definitely the main reason (people only started to make a fuss after it was introduced).

I do have a question for the people (and Anet) that proclaim that pugs are going to die if we add 7 heroes: if it's possible to complete just about any PvE objective in Normal Mode using henches only, then why is it still relatively easy to find a pug for missions in Normal Mode? Why would pugs in Hard Mode, which don't even exist for a lot of missions, suffer from letting only a small fraction of the PvE community use 4 extra heroes instead of 4 henches? I'd really like to hear your answer.

tyche7 · Aug 30, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

I am 100% for 7 hero and 1 person parties - I see NO point in not allowing it. I've ready several posts (many very long) on the issue and have always /signed them saying we need to be allowed 7 heroes. It's something I feel very strongly about -- and just for the record, I PUG about 3/4 of the time. One of the main reasons I DON'T PUG is when I know I'll be afk in the middle of something (like when I'm doing laundry) and don't want to make 7 people waste their time waiting for me or when I'm farming / working on titles (like cartographer), etc. It's VERY tough to find parties for very specific reasons (e.g. for vanquishing or Hard mode or farming certain items). Whereas to find a party for a mish isn't too bad (although quite hard in some areas especially for HM). Given that lack of people I would think anet would jump on the opportunity to still go out and enjoy the game but they refuse us 7 heroes. I still don't even know why - haven't seen a good reason against it yet.

Age · Aug 30, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I don't see how turning missions into quests would be any different in finding groups.

If players want to do nothing but H/H the game then it stop being a cooperative game as pve is related to.Then it becomes an online single player game the end of cooperative.I can't stand using H/H in missions as for the most I fail the mission.I can't help thinking of all the Sins and Mesmers who were shut out of groups because they weren't really needed.You don't even need a Ranger in The Borliss Pass or Frost Gate mission although I solo Monked those.This all starts at the Northern Wall.Way back in beta I didn't even know about henchies and soloed it.

Quote:

Originally posted bybhavv
You mean when the game first came out there was only one campaign. With 3 campaigns and GWEN the players are a lot more spread out, which is what makes it harder to form groups. Your not going to fing 8 people, heck you can hardly find one other person with decent eroes to solo the game with.

Now to everyone saying all it takes for a full hero team is 2 players, most pugs that I have accepted in the past didnt even have heroes, or if they did the builds were a joke (Healing burst, heal other, jameis gaze, heal party Tahlkora anyone?). It doesnt matter how much advice is given to these players they simply dont listen or take consideration.

I am fed up beyond fed up of pugs, as a lot of people are. They waste my time which I dont have much off while working 4 x 10 hour shifts during the week and the occasional fifth day of overtime

I find it much faster with groups that is doing missions not questing.

The reason for bad Monks in the game is because they got ran through it or simply never read up on it or joined a Forum to learn more.That is what the monk forum is for but for the most part they are in bad guilds.

DreamRunner · Aug 31, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

Henchmen aren't always fine in HM, anyone that vanquished or tried to vanquish Poisoned Outcrops with H/H will tell you that. A lot of people have different reasons for wanting 7 heroes, but Hard Mode is definitely the main reason (people only started to make a fuss after it was introduced).

I do have a question for the people (and Anet) that proclaim that pugs are going to die if we add 7 heroes: if it's possible to complete just about any PvE objective in Normal Mode using henches only, then why is it still relatively easy to find a pug for missions in Normal Mode? Why would pugs in Hard Mode, which don't even exist for a lot of missions, suffer from letting only a small fraction of the PvE community use 4 extra heroes instead of 4 henches? I'd really like to hear your answer.

If people are really are having such a difficult time with henchmen then I would suggest to improve henchmen bars rather than get 7 heroes. I still don't see why people really hate henchmen so much. They are not that bad. But yes, I would agree that people wanting this is because of mostly Hard Mode.

And I most sure that I have never proclaimed anything about PuGs. I personally don't really care whats happened to PuGs or whats happening. But I will answer your first question anyway. People can PuG is normal mode for a number of reasons, first is its easy, normal mode is easy and be accomplished by using PuGs. Secondly, people seem hate henchmen, they dislike them for their skills and hate the fact the its an AI controlling the henchmen. I think its to do with control and all that. Thirdly, I think the community doesn't like HM and people just make another character to play if they are bored of one and therefore just go do normal mode all over again.

New Buddha · Aug 31, 2007, 05:27 AM // 05:27

I say we should be given the option of 7 heores IF we so choose. we should be given the choice to pug or hero it.

having 7 heroes will make this game interesting in another way for me.

/signed

Age · Aug 31, 2007, 05:45 AM // 05:45

@DreamRunner

Yeah more or less I wouldn't mind seeing a Soft Mode or Easy Mode for Survivors as I wouldn't making a couple up with 2 slot I have.

Burst Cancel · Aug 31, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Did I seriously just see an Orison argument? *looks around for Ensign*

Orison is a waste of time. Monking is not about keeping everyone at full health; monking is about keeping people alive. There are any number of spells that are better than Orison for keeping people alive, many of which have been mentioned in this thread. Take a look at GvG monking bars - there are reasons why you won't see Orison.

bhavv · Sep 01, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qual

Well she got the word from the designers, soo.... GG

I sent an E-mail to GW support about 7 heroes and gave them a link to this thread, pretty much saying dont tell me to post it on community forums, its already there. Heres the reply:

Thank you very much for contacting the Guild Wars Customer Support Team. We always appreciate hearing from our players. After reviewing your description, we are able to confirm that the problem you have reported is a known issue and the development team is already working on an appropriate solution. However, we are going to forward your enquiry to our QA department in order to provide the development team with as much information as possible.

Also, people that suck up to gaile and Anet Devs are pure lamers. It pretty much just feeds Anet's Ego of 'Were right and our customers are wrong'.

bhavv · Sep 01, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Did I seriously just see an Orison argument? *looks around for Ensign*

Orison is a waste of time. Monking is not about keeping everyone at full health; monking is about keeping people alive. There are any number of spells that are better than Orison for keeping people alive, many of which have been mentioned in this thread. Take a look at GvG monking bars - there are reasons why you won't see Orison.

It was refirng to heroes using Orison, and yes they use it fine. This isnt GVG, its PVE with AI.

Every healer in every campaign uses orison. If you hate orison so much, then I guess I would be expecting you to /sign this so you can change it right?

Anyway, Hero monks for some reason are better at keeping a party alive with orison. I tried changing it to WoC and they dont keep themselves alive very well cos of the recharge.

Why not go and use infuse health in PVE on your heroes too then cos you use it in PVP? Surely it must be a great skill to use in PVE too right? /sarcasm

gloria vander belt · Sep 01, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Finally some 1 started this thread, I agree give us the option to fill our whole team with hero's cus Henchmen are to useless in some areas and i would love to be able to set my teams build to how i want them, not go face Glint in hard Mode with some player who doesnt even have a top-end elite equiped, it makes me laugh how many people just want Hero's, because i agree and if A-Net wanted this to be more sociable they should have Survied there local chat as to why half uys players have it turned off 24/7, even in tombs i preffer to take heros and henchies, and if i could i would equip all slots with heros but A-Net are dumb and only let you have 3 out at a time, and yes i agree whats with having 3 warriors???? thats just over tanked, completely and utterly stupid to only allow u to equip 3 heros at a time....P.S pugs sucked that bad at Hard Mode i did glint with henchies only, and theres no point to equiping certain heros when they over run the henchies!!!

bhavv · Sep 01, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

If people are really are having such a difficult time with henchmen then I would suggest to improve henchmen bars rather than get 7 heroes. I still don't see why people really hate henchmen so much. They are not that bad. But yes, I would agree that people wanting this is because of mostly Hard Mode.

In consulate docks HM, khim uses 4 skills. RoF, orison, PS, and renew life. Throughout NF, Mhenlo uses WoH and Healing breeze when he would be much better off with LoD and no healing breeze at all.

Better hench bars have been asked for several times, Ive had a few threads on it already. But Anet arent doing anything.

And the real reason why people want 7 heroes doesnt really have anything to do with HM or NM, its because they want to use their own custom skill bars. They would find playing their own way without other people insulting them (hello orison haters) a lot more fun then being tied down to henchmen skillbars and other people that either cant play the way they want, or ask them to play in a different way.

Everyone enjoys playing the game in one way better then another. 7 heroes would allow everyone to play the way they enjoy best.

nugzta · Sep 01, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

As I said before and I'll say it again, allow us to use 7 heroes in HM only. PuG dont do HM, they all do normal missions/quests. So having 7 heroes in HM it wont affect anyone.

Also I believe the addition of 7 heroes wont make difference from current state anyway (some like pug, some like H/H, its all up to your playstyle)

Lord Natural · Sep 02, 2007, 12:59 AM // 00:59

I think they're trying to encourage the buddy system, which at least requires 1 friend for a full hero team. Unfortunately most people seem to just go solo anyway, so the effort is for naught. I know I'd have more fun playing if I could make a full hero team build, instead of a hero team build built around compensating for poor hench skillsets.

I definitely think 25 hench is overkill with the current system, especially considering none of them have unique abilities. I remember with FF3 (6 in JP), you had a huge cast but at least everyone had their own unique ability which made it beneficial to rotate party configurations. When every hero is the same, there is really no reason at all to rotate different heroes into the mix. The only thing it allows you to do is bring 3 heroes of the same class, but that's really a small benefit that most people won't take advantage of.

After playing EN for a day (even after I swore I wouldn't buy it

), I'm wishing they'd have just made it harder and allowed 7 heroes. So far things seem quite easy, not to mention many areas are very runnable.

bhavv · Sep 02, 2007, 02:23 AM // 02:23

yea, they are promoting two people + 6 heroes play, when the fact is people that like to use heroes play solo anyway, and people that play with other people tend not to use heroes.

Anet are a little screwed in their heads.

DreamRunner · Sep 02, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

In consulate docks HM, khim uses 4 skills. RoF, orison, PS, and renew life. Throughout NF, Mhenlo uses WoH and Healing breeze when he would be much better off with LoD and no healing breeze at all.

Better hench bars have been asked for several times, Ive had a few threads on it already. But Anet arent doing anything.

And the real reason why people want 7 heroes doesnt really have anything to do with HM or NM, its because they want to use their own custom skill bars. They would find playing their own way without other people insulting them (hello orison haters) a lot more fun then being tied down to henchmen skillbars and other people that either cant play the way they want, or ask them to play in a different way.

Everyone enjoys playing the game in one way better then another. 7 heroes would allow everyone to play the way they enjoy best.

A few threads like this one? Where you seem to be mostly complaining. And not only that but everyone else in the thread didnt seem to have the same problem as you did. You are pissed off at PuGs, henchmen and just want heroes because its going to be easier.